Curse

Greedy Gus · Mar 03, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by hareth

you forget to speak about monk, izzy nerfed lod cauz the game was "too defensive", then he buffed woh and hp so much than it's like 10 time more, reversing hp to 2 sec cast, making woh 5 sec recharge, would be a great thing for the game.

Good points. Word can probably be considered as part of the cornerstone power creep skills with somewhat similar reasoning as I gave for b-surge. Admittedly though I don't really have the experience with backlines to describe the full issue; it feels like it has something to do with distorting the standard value of energy & time, something Kaon has spent some time trying to discuss (one shot 5e word to completely top someone back off after the prots come in).

As far as heal party, I think you're right that it needs to be at 2s cast, though that's part of a more specific set of changes that likely need to take place should they decide on a direction for party healing.

C2K · Mar 03, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

The only two things I can't say I will agree with is reverts and/or buffs on Blackout and Gale. These skills are in a good place right now they shouldn't be touched. I believe these nerfs happened before the factions release as well and wouldn't be part of the "revert to before Factions" part of this balance.

Kaon · Mar 03, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

I can't believe how incredibly overrated gale-warriors are. In an 8v8 fight gale is only slightly stronger. Shock deals damage has a shorter activation time, and is not a spell. Only in split it is more powerful, which is a good thing!

Comparing this to old gale warriors there now is so much more stuff to take gale down: Better interface (making it interruptable now, back then this was hard!), stability, and MUCH better offmonk defense.

Also people forget that the really big nerf to gale was the fact that you couldn't get negative exhaustion anymore. I miss my galing 7times in a row on recharge.

Gale should've never been nerfed I say. And every skillbalance I secretely hope it gets buffed.

However, again Izzy displays his lack of knowledge and insight into the game and does not buff a skill that has given so much to the game. A sad thing indeed.

And if you are still fearfull then add the mechanic i've also proposed about 10 times earlier: Make it easily interruptable. This would also allow you to stop galespams on flagrunners.

wuzzman · Mar 03, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

geez........gale warriors was defiantly broken..................saying shock is better then gale is retarded period. Blackout however, that needs to be brought back, it wasn't NEARLY as broken as gale on everyone and their great grand mother, gave teams lots of intelligent options.

ax mastery · Mar 03, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

wuzzman, do you have any basis for your random comments?

On topic, Gus, you should edit your original post to include any good ideas brought up later in the thread, so anet might actually find everything worth reading.

Andrew Patrick · Mar 03, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ax mastery

On topic, Gus, you should edit your original post to include any good ideas brought up later in the thread, so anet might actually find everything worth reading.

I'm reading it all, and I sent Izzy a link to check it out.

Razz L Dazzle · Mar 03, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Where should party healing go , exactly?

One of the things i think Izzy has been all over the place with is where should the party-healing go. Each meta-game becomes a juggling of where it should go. I think the game needs to have a clear vision of where it should be placed. I'll try to evaluate a bit about each resulting game and make my personal suggestions as to why i like Gus' idea about keeping it on the flagger.

This has changed several times. It was for a long time on the HP/E-prod flagger and as occasion variation of E-prod stand ele. This type of game allowed for several strategic decisions. This was part of the reason why split became so successful, and i don't mean dedicate healer/sin/sin split. Flaggers were needed to protect the base and keep the team up verse pressure. Flaggers were hardly tanks but had a few skills to keep NPC's alive. In this type of game teams/ flaggers had to make life or death decision of how to run flags/ keep the base alive. Double running became popular, HP spam to handle pressure as well. Pushing flaggers netted good results and having a good balanced split worked. HP was fragile and essential and certainly not over-powered.

In more recent history, LoD became the dominant party heal. This type of game rewarded P-leaking and D-shotting/Diversioning LoD for pressure and game winning wipes. Having solid midliners with good ping/timing became rewarded over any other style of play. The strong party healing at the stand became a must divert/D-shot or pressure was ineffective. Active splits could still push after the flagger but stand pressure wasn't nearly as effective unless LoD was disabled. LoD was strongly over-powered in this meta. Flagger became tanks because they didn't need to HP and dedicated splits were needed to accomplish anything verse them.

After LoD got nerfed it manifested it self in new forms of HB/HP , Resto-gon and PwK Rits. Each of these newer forms were on seemingly boring and broken character templates. PwK Rits became tanks with some party healing, splinter and A-Rage were overpowered necessities for VoD. This template really wasn't enough healing and required extra defense or a Resto-
Gon to make up for deficiencies. Resto-gons became vital, passive defense spike bots that kept up the stand healing. This template is difficult to shut-down and really takes no skill to play. There isn't any strategic decisions that go into put this skill into effect on recharge. Permanent mendings isn't what anyone wanted either. The other party-healer HB/HP monk really seems like a degenerate template. It takes away skillful protting which is reserved for the other monk while it boosts mega- HPs that aren't easily interrupted and heal every ally a mile away. This bar isn't tough to play nor does it reward skilled play like prot-based monking does. Buffed HP has only made this bar worse and i'd suggest killing Healer's boon altogether.

Most recent balances has given us Divine Healing copies which are on the fringe of playability providing minor heals. Currently party healing has several options on many different characters. While this seeming diversity might look good for the game it really isn't. This new wave of 1 second cast quick recharging party heals are difficult to shutdown since they are so many of them plus this makes the game interrupt and ping based. It has also killed many pressure builds couple with other defense skills of course. Most have resorted to spiking and dedicated splits trying to ignore the current nature of party healing and passive defense walls.

I'd suggest that the old HP flagger was really the optimal form of party healing. It allowed for diverse strategic options rather than diverse skill options. I think a 10 energy 2 second cast HP might be a good direction. Song of Restoration, Pwk, HB/HP bars would need to be nerfed along with new divine healing bars. Some other buffs and changes would be needed but i think party healing should have a distinct postion in the meta-game. Too many skill options isn't making the game better. LoD meta would be the other preferable choice depending on which game-style would work the best.

pah01 · Mar 04, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

I'm reading it all, and I sent Izzy a link to check it out.

Stuff like this has been said quite a lot in many threads.

Please please please follow the community's thoughts here.

Joe

xhappy feetx · Mar 04, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

I'm reading it all, and I sent Izzy a link to check it out.

Can I have Izzy's email? I'd love to send him some, ehhh, stuff

Captain Robo · Mar 04, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

I'm reading it all, and I sent Izzy a link to check it out.

Tell him to take off his beer goggles this time. The updates after Mitch's thread were definitely a step in he right direction, but left a lot to be desired.

Sha Noran · Mar 04, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Well written post. I'm glad it's caught the attention of those whose attention you wanted... even though I would say some of your logic and cause/effect is a little skewed.

I only really felt like adding that no matter how much I loved the metagame of old, buffing Blackout and Gale is a risky business. Sure, it wasn't so bad in the days before teleporting.... but a devastatingly powerful Blackout would not be good in today's game. And Gale... I love Gale, and I'd still say it's one of the best skills in the game but.... a 5e, 3s KD Gale is simply overpowered.

Unfortunately, I just don't think the skill based PvP game you're looking for exists anymore. I would be stunned/impressed if we saw an update with some/any of these in-depth solutions you've outlined.

Insane Warrior · Mar 04, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Gus great post- let's hope izzy listens.
I think GoLE would be well served to have 50% failure at es 4 or less. This would cause secondary eles to save energy once per minute on average instead of every 30 seconds hopefully requiring a little more skill and risk

C2K · Mar 04, 2008, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Warrior

Gus great post- let's hope izzy listens.
I think GoLE would be well served to have 50% failure at es 4 or less. This would cause secondary eles to save energy once per minute on average instead of every 30 seconds hopefully requiring a little more skill and risk

Thats not really the problem with GoLE. The problem is cancelling skills under GoLE, but the skill not counting towards the 2 spell limit, and as someone has said already, the skill abused the most is Aegis.

Greedy Gus · Mar 04, 2008, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Thats not really the problem with GoLE. The problem is cancelling skills under GoLE

That's the overt balance problem with GoLE, but not really the deeper undercurrent issue that this thread is trying to unearth and discuss.

neoflame · Mar 04, 2008, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Warrior

I think GoLE would be well served to have 50% failure at es 4 or less. This would cause secondary eles to save energy once per minute on average instead of every 30 seconds hopefully requiring a little more skill and risk

Because it takes a lot of skill to pray that your GoLE doesn't fail? If you were going to go this route I'd nerf it to 1..2 spells saved (breakpoint ends up at 7 or 8 ES I think) and then lock energy discount at 15.

Akaraxle · Mar 04, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I can't believe how incredibly overrated gale-warriors are.

The thing is, Gale becomes an abusable beast in one single place: Frozen Isle, the place where if you're in aggro range of your enemy you've signed your own death penalty (pun intended).
While being a good map, I've always thought Frozen wasn't perfect and the power of Icy Ground is what threatens its perfection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

Because it takes a lot of skill to pray that your GoLE doesn't fail? If you were going to go this route I'd nerf it to 1..2 spells saved (breakpoint ends up at 7 or 8 ES I think) and then lock energy discount at 15.

It makes the skill unusable and trash for secondaries. Would you take an energy management skill that works half the time, and still eats 5e for the attempt? By the theory of probability, you'll have a GoLE that recharges virtually in 60s; but if Murphy decides to butt in, you'll have a wasted skill slot.

Cass · Mar 04, 2008, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I can't believe how incredibly overrated gale-warriors are. In an 8v8 fight gale is only slightly stronger. Shock deals damage has a shorter activation time, and is not a spell. Only in split it is more powerful, which is a good thing!

Gale's KD lasts 2+1 seconds if taken on a war... pretty punishing. Arguing that it can be D Shot is kind of weak as it is the universal reply to overpowered skills: "but you can diversion/d shot it!"

Besides, as a spell, you can use FC mods on it!

At the OP: Some of the suggested changes regarding boon prots just seem like yearning for old times (I played this too btw), without actual gameplay benefits. Why would we want boonprots back?

Expertise should not affect stances. It would surely open another can of worms similar to degenerate crap like touchers and thumpers. RAO at 12e? No. I also don't see how a short stance like distortion would be more fun than the less powerful (-25%block, ends on hex/ench) but longer lasting nat stride. Timing the stance is a tactical choice IMO.

There isn't any reason to bring diversion down to 5 seconds. 6 seconds is a nice and brief window. Good for interesting play and good for potential removal or natural wear-off. This is not a boring nec hex like faintheartedness that lasts forever. Do you want to shorten it just for the sake of nerfing?

Greedy Gus · Mar 04, 2008, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

The thing is, Gale becomes an abusable beast in one single place: Frozen Isle, the place where if you're in aggro range of your enemy you've signed your own death penalty (pun intended).
While being a good map, I've always thought Frozen wasn't perfect and the power of Icy Ground is what threatens its perfection.

You could look at it the other way, in that icy ground hasn't been threatening enough. So now you may have the mindset that ranged KDs are too powerful on frozen ground, and that frozen isle is supposed to be a giant map where you easily run everywhere on. But surely you wouldn't complain that getting galed while running circles in the lava is too brutal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Gale's KD lasts 2+1 seconds if taken on a war... pretty punishing. Arguing that it can be D Shot is kind of weak as it is the universal reply to overpowered skills: "but you can diversion/d shot it!"

Besides, as a spell, you can use FC mods on it!

He wasn't just using conjecture, plenty of us played with gale wars and they were fine (after fixing negative exhaustion). People also used to use shock in certain cases instead of even 5e gale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

At the OP: Some of the suggested changes regarding boon prots just seem like yearning for old times (I played this too btw), without actual gameplay benefits. Why would we want boonprots back?

Instead of reading the bullet point, and trying to figure out on your own what the change seems like, just read the paragraph below where I gave specific reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

I also don't see how a short stance like distortion would be more fun than the less powerful (-25%block, ends on hex/ench) but longer lasting nat stride. Timing the stance is a tactical choice IMO.

Read the original post to understand the reasoning. And this isn't about one skill being more fun, it's about having a healthier game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

There isn't any reason to bring diversion down to 5 seconds. 6 seconds is a nice and brief window. Good for interesting play and good for potential removal or natural wear-off. This is not a boring nec hex like faintheartedness that lasts forever. Do you want to shorten it just for the sake of nerfing?

Read the original post to understand the reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Expertise should not affect stances. It would surely open another can of worms similar to degenerate crap like touchers and thumpers. RAO at 12e? No.

RaO is already affected by expertise. Expertise affected stances for years and it worked fine (even better, it was good for the game to have distortion there). We don't have to guess on these things or fear some unknown. I seriously question your ability to take part in a higher level balance discussion.

Kaon · Mar 04, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

First off, when i talk about gale buff i only mean it going to 5 energy. The 3s isn't necessary and it will go to 3s for warriors anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

The thing is, Gale becomes an abusable beast in one single place: Frozen Isle, the place where if you're in aggro range of your enemy you've signed your own death penalty (pun intended).
While being a good map, I've always thought Frozen wasn't perfect and the power of Icy Ground is what threatens its perfection.

How is this different than what happens today? If a flagrunner pushes over the ice he faces shock bullstrike and gale (if opponent has an air or fire ele). He simply won't make it unless he gets stability or runs the long way. It's always been like that and a 5e gale doesn't change ANYTHING.

What it does change is that it now gives warriors the ability to snare lone people on the ice in split. Something only eles and rangers were allowed to do. Again I argue that this is only beneficial for the game because it forces people to coördinate what they do and brings warriors on par with rangers and elementalists. Besides that even if the warrior gales you you're not dead yet because the warrior himself gets stuck on the ice as well. Deaths charge bullstrike is FAR more powerful in frozen isle, hence why all (good) byob warriors use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Gale's KD lasts 2+1 seconds if taken on a war... pretty punishing. Arguing that it can be D Shot is kind of weak as it is the universal reply to overpowered skills: "but you can diversion/d shot it!"

That is not the main point of what I said, which you are totally ignoring. A 5e gale isn't that much better than shock, it just allows for many more tactical possibilities.

When objectively looking at the game it is NOT possible to say gale would be blatantly overpowered. And even if it would be superoverpowered like it used to, i'd still prefer it being buffed simply because of the incredible tactical possibilities the skill offers. Buffing gale would ALWAYS be an improvement to the game, no matter what. The GWWC would've sucked if gale had been nerfed. The tactical deepness of the GWFC therefore was extremely shallow compared to what we saw on the GWWC.

IMPORTANT: This discussion about gale should not divert attention away from the opening post. Those are the crucial points that have to be changed along with a MASSIVE monk nerf.

Zabe · Mar 04, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Umm is gale affected by Stonefist Insignias? Just thinking about it because thought I did read somewhere that because it has been stated to KD for 2 secs, it doesn't get effect from Stonefist's. Not sure, but if it is so, 5e version of current gale wouldn't be too good compared to shock or any other KD.